Coteaz 100
(5) Purifiers, 2x Psycannon, 2x Halberd, 1x Hammer 149
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo 50
(5) Purifiers, 2x Psycannon, 2x Halberd, 1x Hammer 149
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo 50
(5) Purifiers, 2x Psycannon, 2x Halberd, 1x Hammer 149
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo 50
(3) Warrior Henchmen 12
Razorback, TL Asscan, Psybolt ammo 85
(3) Warrior Henchmen 12
Razorback, TL Asscan, Psybolt ammo 85
(3) Warrior Henchmen 12
Razorback, TL Asscan, Psybolt ammo 85
(3) Warrior Henchmen 12
Razorback, TL Asscan, Psybolt ammo 85
(3) Warrior Henchmen 12
Razorback, TL Asscan, Psybolt ammo 85
(3) Warrior Henchmen 12
Razorback, TL Asscan, Psybolt ammo, searchlight 86
(5) Purgation squad, 2x Psycannon 140
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo 50
(5) Purgation squad, 2x Psycannon 140
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo 50
(5) Purgation squad, 2x Psycannon 140
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo 50
= 1850
This comes a couple of days after saying that Spam is fine and anyone you complains about it is a whiny b*i*t*c*h.
I look at a list like this then think about my 8K points of space marines and see that I cannot write a list that would be able to beat this one with any reasonable rate. I certainly cannot out shoot it in the mid field, I cannot out range it with firepower since devastators even with missile launchers are to expensive at like 150 points for 4 with no spare wounds other than the sergeant. Drop poding in melta armed forces might be an option but at like 200 points per unit, I might drop a couple of the razorbacks the first turn but then will just be torn up.
Here is my forces, what would your ideas be:
HQ:
Sicarius, Pedro, Cassius, Shrike, Jump Chaplin, Librarian, Termi -Captain, Lib, and Chaplin. 9 Man Honour Guard. 5 Man Command Squad.
Elites:
2 Sternguard squads (options 1 combimelta, 2 combiplasma, powerfist, lightening claw) 2 Dreads (total options Lascannon, AsCan, PlasCan, Missile, CC-Bolter, CC-HF), ~ 30 Termis (5 TH, 5 LC, 15 Normal, 2 AsCan, 2 Cyclone, 1 HF)
Troops: 6 Tac Squads (most options except tons on combi weapons), 4 Scout Squads (2 sniper, 1 cc, 1 bolter)
Motor Pool: 4 Rhino Chasis (Rhino, TL-HB Razorback, TL LC Razorback, Whirlwind), 9 Castle Mould Drop Pods.
Fast Attack: 2 Assault Squads (2 Plasma Pistol+ Powerfist, 2 Flamers + Powerweapons), 2 Foot Vanguard Squads with a assorted weapons, 1 Jump Vanguard Squad, 2 Speeder (AsCan+HB, Flamer+MM), Bike Squad (2 Melta, Powerfist, MM Attack Bike)
Heavy Support: 2 Devastator Squads (12 Missile, 4 HB, 6 Lascan, 4 MM, 4 Plasma Cannons), 2 Vindis, 2 Predators (TL Las+HB, Auto+HB), LR Crusader.
I am sure their is more random marines and such. I cannot really spam any units so what can I do if I was to face the first army.
At the risk of sounding snarky, my idea would be "Don't play that guy."
ReplyDeleteI could see that it might be possible to draw a objectives match if you can kill all the henchman hidding in their razorbacks but in the process of that I would probably get tabled. Maybe a kill point game where you have very few kill points and avoid being tabled.
ReplyDeleteDarkwing, you are clearly a tau player, the kings of shooting, right. Do you think you could out shoot this list on a standard sized board with say the Nova standard terrain.
ReplyDeleteDude , GK are broken , it's not his fault he can make a list like that.
ReplyDeleteI would play him, I would probably loose, would I feel bad , NO because the game would in no way show him to be a better 40k player than me, quite the reverse in fact.
the principles of spam are simple, anyone can apply them to a dex to the n'th degree, playing with them is also 1 dimensional and again works on a simple theory, Where is the skill ?
I'm not going to try and craft a list from your stuff - the important facts are this:
ReplyDeleteHis Troops are easy to kill. Whether you play SG, C+C, or Annihilation - you can realistically kill them all over 6 Turns if they aren't Reserved, and you focus.
His stuff, most of it, has a 24" range, plus ofc his 6" move - this gives you at least a turn of advantage if you can outrange him, as most armies can.
His anti-infantry fire is ridiculous, almost - but his anti-tank is unreliable at best.
Having looked again at your stuff - no, there is no way for you to write a list that can compete without more purchases.
This is an underlying truth of 40k that gets ignored, mostly obfuscated by lies about 'Codex Creep'.
The point of a new Codex is NOT to sell itself and it's models. It is to sell BOTH those AND more models from the existing armies to counter the new things.
For a start, I don't think Space Marines can be successfully used without Riflemen Dreadnoughts. You have none. Secondly, the single best unit in the SM book, imo, is the MM/HF Land Speeders. You own one. This is, for top-level competitive play, insufficient.
Sorry, that's as sugar-coated as I can do.
Sorrowshard, unfortunately once GW breaks one part they have to break more parts in the next codexes since they rarely go back and actually fix anything.
ReplyDeleteElessar, a well written codex should not have best units. That is the point of the unit costs. GW just does a really bad job with those numbers and treats them as cast in stone for 4-8 years for each army.
ReplyDeleteI did buy plenty of units when codex book got updated. I would be willing to invest in a few more models but I have no interest in building 3-6 of the same vehicles. 40 of my tac marines are from the last 2 starter boxes since I was getting really bored with those also hence I have a 9 man strong honour guard and both types of vanguards.
This is why I quit playing last year (after being a loyal fan for 15 years). Locally I just couldn't find anyone who cared about the game, the universe of 40K and just having fun. It was nothing but BoLS net list o' the month math-hammer tools.
ReplyDeleteNothing wrong with being a competitive player at all, hell back in the day I played in my fair share of GTs (pre 2007 era) and ran many tournaments. I fully get that competitive play is what drives many people's excitement for the game and it is a great motivator to get your armies painted and just to really have fun. But Personally I've seen such a decline (again locally, no clue what its like outside of my area other than just what I see on the internet) that the things that drew me to 40K in the first place had basically totally disappeared. One used to go to a tourney and talk backstory and basic strategy and tactics and about how you and the other guy painted and converted your army. These days the top players ... few of them paint their own stuff and math-hammer is all they want to talk. So I've moved off to Spartan Games stuff and am looking at historicals, etc. Hell for me video games are more interesting than the current state of 40K.
I'm going to give 40K one more chance when 5th is out, but if it doesn't take for me then the rest of my stuff goes on ebay (I sold off 7 armies over the summer ... 3000.00 that I re-allocated to other games).
I don't hate GW or the people who love where its going, it just isn't my cup of tea anymore.
I think a strong C: SM gunline has a really good chance against this army as you would have superior weapons and more bodies. I have played against a similar army recently and once the AV11 vehicles started dying, the firepower started going away, once the firepower dwindled and 3 man squads were breaking from taking a single casualty, things really started to go against the GK player who had to get lucky to hurt my dreads or my vics, From there it was clean up duty.
ReplyDeleteSince I have been on the East Coast the last couple months, I can say that the razorspam here is heavy, but is is the new guy army. The veteran players have stepped up and moved on from seal clubbing crap like this. I think you should have a couple proxy games against it with a friend who is on your level of play and play a few games with various lists to get a feel for how to fight it. You will be shocked by how easily it folds.
Like an Infantry Gunline:
ReplyDeleteLib (Null, Gate) 100
Lib (Null, Gate) 100
5 Scout+ML+Stealth 100
5 Scout+ML+Stealth 100
10 Tac+Las+Plas 190
10 Tac+Las+Plas 190
5 Assault Termis 200
8 Stern+2 Melta 220
9 Devastator+4 ML 214
9 Devastator+4 ML 214
9 Devastator+4 ML 214
Seems like I am going to have mobility problems and if I cannot draw a bead at ranges above 24 inches I will get destroyed.
I actually disagree tbh. I think it's part of the nature of Toy Soldiering that a well-written Codex MUST by it's nature have better and worse units, in order to push sales.
ReplyDeleteGW simply cannot rely upon kits gradually turning a profit by themselves - remember, it took, iirc, 15 years to turn a profit on the original Land Raider.
GW are a miniatures company first, maybe this is to the detriment of rules, but it's the only way they can function.
An Infantry Gunline will never really compete with a list of ten S7 Assault Cannons, even in Power Armour. :(
Do you want me to try to make a list, irrespective of cost?
I doubt they have the turn a profit problem now. They are now a major plastic model producer with the appropriate economies of scale. Look at all the sprues that pack into Dreadfleet which they are going to make a good profit on even selling only like 30K units (or they would not be doing it). What does GW ship like 4M-5M units a year(assuming 30 lb kits all sold through retail so the number might be 8M or more). I would no be surprised if they have the tooling costs down to like 10K a sprue now. Add in multiple sprue and maybe a box development cost is 50K-100K for everything. Sell 3-5 kits out to your retailers and you have covered that (10K units).
ReplyDeleteIf this is the case why is GW only releasing a few kits per month. I would guess that is the fact the new kits while generating sales also reduces existing kit sales. To many new releases do not net you any gain in sales so they are not worth the investment.
I am sure I could build a list to fight this one if I replace all my units to do it but given that I have like 4 armies worth of space marines what is the point.
If you are tired of GW can I suggest Infinity ? It really is very good on so many levels.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't even try to fight against an army like that. I don't play 40k competitively...but against like-minded players who believe in fluffy army lists. The result is fun.
ReplyDeleteIt's the fluff that drew me to the game. Take away the fluff and build a WAAC list, and to me it's not 40k anymore.
1. All of that list's scoring units are unbelievably fragile. Yes, there are six of them, but they will come apart like paper the moment their ride breaks.
ReplyDelete2. That list has no Melta of any kind. High-AV models, especially AV13 in abundance (like BA can field) will really give it trouble. It will also struggle to kill vehicles at times, as everyone knows how easy it is to roll a string of 1s and 2s on the damage table- AP1 is a HUGE boon.
3. It's actually pretty weak in CC despite being Grey Knights. Five guys with three power weapons? Yeah, ten Tacticals can sackbeat them to death.
4. Henchmen aside, it's actually very fragile. All of those bodies are easy to kill and in small squads; if you get into its lines, it has no options except "keep on keeping on."
5. Its only guns outside of 24" are the Psybacks; an opposing shooting list can probably cripple many of its tanks in the first 1-2 turns when it is trying to close the range to use its weapons, as none of the transports are Fast.
It it a good list? Eh, it's sure not bad, but it's a bit gimmicky. I think there are better ways to write a GK list with a similar theme. IG can field more vehicle hulls than that or bring more guns if it cares to, other armies can bring more efficient firepower (85pts for AV11 is... expensive). It's no more the end-all be-all of 40K than Leafblower, or Nob Bikerz, or any of the other "rage of the week" armies were.
And when I don't have the time to actually play the game...I just enjoy the painting aspect of it.
ReplyDeleteAbuse Puppy, I never said that this was an unbeatable list. I said that I look at it and know that I cannot beat it with what I have in my collection of 8K of space marines.
ReplyDeleteYes breaking the rides of the troops would be your first goal since they have the best weapons also but he will probably due a stagard deployment where the turrets can shoot but the back tanks always get cover. Give a razorback cover the destruction rate with lascannon shots is 7.4%. You would probably just hope he gets boxed in if you destroy the front tanks. Also given that fielding all 9 of my lascannons (1 Razorback, 1 Dread, 1 Predator, 6 Marines) would run like 700 points I do not think that will work.
Even with missiles you are only at an 11% kill rate. You can have 8 space marine missile launchers fire at 1 razorback and still it has a 38% chance of surviving direct destruction (might be destroyed through mutliple weapon/imbolization results)
I also do not have a lot of armor 13+. I bring the landraider as dedicated and 2 predators plus a vindi but those have side armor issues which would have to be covered with weak rhinos or razorbacks.
*shrug* Well, I can't tell you whether you can or can't beat it, the point was that it is entirely beatable. Predators (especially AC/HB ones) will work just fine against that list, as you can sit back at range to prevent easy side shots. Assault Terminators will give it a pretty bad time if you can deliver them into his lines- shielding a Land Raider with a Predator could work quite well there. LasPlas out-range him badly, as do Missiles, Lascannons, etc, so putting them in the backfield (or on mobile platforms like Land Speeders) will do you quite well. SM certainly has options, although I can't say what you own.
ReplyDeleteYour percentages for kills look about right, but remember that NO gun has a particularly high kill percent against a tank with cover, even the famed Meltagun. If he's using tank-layering, shoot the front line to try and immobilize them, which can leave him blocked in by his own strategy.
Also remember that most of his firepower is on tanks that need to move closer (and thus expose themselves) or on infantry (which are vulnerable.) It looks like a lot of guns on paper, but in practice he's gonna have trouble doing anything but shaking transports.
I think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill buddy. While I didn't write that list (Jabbdo did) I don't think it's unbeatable.
ReplyDeleteThe list has 12 psycannons which can knock out 48 shots. Those squads HAVE to disembark to use those psycannons and are the bulk of the anti tank of the army. You kill them and the army will struggle with anti armour.
The Psybacks can be popped like any other Razorback and have good chances of ignoring 1/3 of the damage table. NOw that's a problem for supression only, but they are only S6 heavy bolters and better for anti tank. Then you've got the squads inside of the tanks which are extremely weak.
Sure it will be tough to deal with because of the amount of units it has, but I don't think that list packs a huge amount of punch.
Out of your pool of models you haven't got enough good stuff and it appears you maybe have been collecting mostly from the previous Marine codex (Terminator Command Squad)? It's your collection of models which cannot compete as just appears to be on based on a 4th edition codex. A list which could deal with that Grey Knight list would be Vulkan Drop Pods with all those meltas and a properly setup Marine list with Tacticals, Typhoons and auto/las Predators.
Perhaps you are been a whiny bitch? :P ;)
Mercer
ReplyDeleteI already update my army some since they took away my traits. Originally my marines had no mech at all.
I feel if the game was designed properly with good points balance I should not have to replace essentially my entire army every codex but that appears to be GW plan.
My nids are so much worse off than my marines. I remember how excited I was to be getting a new codex. I had my apoc assault brood box waiting to be built and they just crushed the excitement right out of me with their drive to move the new models.
Unfortunately I haven't had to go through what you've been through. I started 4th a year before 5th came in and I hadn't grasped the ropes, I had limited mech, but when 5th came in I had limited models and armies and was easy for me to mech up so to speak. I think mech wise my Marines had two tanks, a Predator and a Razorback. I am dreading 6th edition in case it makes all my mech armies redundant.
ReplyDeleteI agree about Tyranids. I am unfortunately jacking them them for various reasons.